15/05/11 08:39 AM
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On Tier 3 Planetary Production – My Current Setup
As I have reviewed what has happened in getting a good sized Planetary Interaction setup organised, several things began to pop up. There was this constant nagging sensation that I was Doing It Wrong™. There also had to be a way to get a better yield and some how make use of the CPU that was not being used. The first idea was to see if would be better to separate extraction and production completely. To do this, I enlisted the help of The Puppet to set up his four planets to extract each of the four P0 needed in the production of Robotics.
First a quick survey of the system gave us a good rundown of what resources were available on each of the planets [or just glancing online somewhere] and in what quantities they are present at each one. This part was something that I felt was important as it allowed me to eliminate some planets in favor of others. From this survey I whipped up a quick and dirty sheet of numbers to help plan out my strategy:
| Planet |
Aq
Liq |
Base
Mtl |
Carbon
Cmpds |
Micro
Org |
Noble
Mtl |
Hvy
Mtl |
Non-CS
Crys |
Susp
Plas |
Ionic
Sol. |
Noble
Gas |
Reac
Gas |
Plank
Col. |
| I |
25 |
75 |
75 |
75 |
33 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
| II |
25 |
75 |
75 |
75 |
25 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
| III |
0 |
40 |
0 |
0 |
80 |
40 |
50 |
5 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
| IV |
60 |
80 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
60 |
50 |
60 |
0 |
0 |
| V |
50 |
75 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
55 |
75 |
25 |
0 |
| VI |
50 |
75 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
60 |
75 |
33 |
0 |
| VII |
50 |
75 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
60 |
75 |
25 |
0 |
| VIII |
50 |
75 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
60 |
75 |
20 |
0 |
| IX |
100 |
0 |
0 |
50 |
0 |
100 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
33 |
0 |
50 |
[caption id="" align="alignleft" width="161" caption="Kename's Ice Planet"]  [/caption]
[caption id="" align="alignleft" width="150" caption="The Puppet's Ice Planet"]  [/caption]
The Puppet planned to just extract the raw materials and export the refined P1 materials and store them in the Corporate Hangar Array for me to haul to the planet where I was building Robotics. He set up on the ice planet to extract Heavy Metals as it had the largest concentration of that resource. I added an extraction set up for the ice planet as well and soon we were pulling in a great volume of Heavy Metals and exporting quite a fair amount of Toxic Metals to put toward Cons. Elect. production later. One of the big benefits of the way the new extractor head system works is the ability to move them around freely to adjust to changing deposits of resources or fix and fiddle with any of them without having to destroy and rebuild a colony every time. Due to the way the CPU/power grid worked out, I was not able to get an additional basic industrial facility as I was short about 50 PG. Since there was copious amounts of CPU available, I opted to add a second Landing pad and put the intermediate P1 there for storage and export.
[caption id="" align="alignright" width="151" caption="Kename's Storm Planet"]  [/caption]
[caption id="attachment_1126" align="alignright" width="150" caption="The Puppet's Storm Planet"]  [/caption]
For his second installation he set up on the storm world to extract Base Metals. This was a deliberate decision based on my previous survey of the system. All but one of the planets in our wormhole has deposits of Base Metals and at fairly high concentrations. The storm planet has the benefits of being the largest quantity by percentage coupled with a fairly low planetary radius to keep link costs down. It also does not have any other resources necessary for production of robotics. The lower CPU and PG needs for links allows for an additional processor instead of the second spaceport of the ice planet. The Base Metals are refined and converted into Reactive Metals for the later production of Mechanical Parts needed to make Robotics.
[caption id="" align="alignleft" width="244" caption="Kename's Plasma Planet"]  [/caption]
[caption id="attachment_1125" align="alignleft" width="150" caption="The Puppet's Plasma Planet"]  [/caption]
The third move was into toward the plasma planet’s set up. It was initially set up to be both an extraction and production plant. Some conversion was necessary in order for it to fit the new structure of pure extraction instead. The basic industry facilities were retained but in some cases repurposed with new schematics. Additionally the the spaceport for storage and export was kept intact. Production schema were updated and routes modified to match. The radius of the planet is similar to that of the storm and so has a similar number of processors. The Puppet here also set up shop to extract Non-CS Crystals and produce Chiral Structures for later incorporation into Cons. Elect.
[caption id="" align="alignright" width="244" caption="Kename's Barren Extraction Planet"]  [/caption]
[caption id="attachment_1124" align="alignright" width="150" caption="The Puppet's Barren Planet"]  [/caption]
Finally the last extraction planet was one of the Barren Planets. There was not much difference between the two and their relative deposits so The Puppet put up an extractor colony on the first planet and I opted to build my extraction facility on the second one. The idea was to avoid interfering with each other’s setup and thereby maximising the returns. The barren planets both have somewhat mediocre deposits of Noble Metals, but the only other planet with the resource is the plasma planet which is already obligated for Non-CS Crystals.
After all of that, it seemed like the bulk of the work was finished. Eight planets had been set up to extract the four necessary P0 materials and refine it into the four Tier 1 Products used to produce Consumer Electronics and Mechanical Parts for final inclusion of the Robotics.
[caption id="" align="alignleft" width="194" caption="Making Robots"]  [/caption]
[caption id="attachment_1123" align="alignright" width="150" caption="Backup Production Facility"]  [/caption]
The last step was supposed to be the most straight forward as it could be set up on any planet and did not require survey. Again, I opted to have this set up on the second barren planet in our home wormhole system that I was not using for Noble Metals [but The Puppet was] as it had the smallest diameter and thus was the most economical in terms of CPU and PG needed for links. This was a fairly complex setup and in hindsight would do a couple of placements differently [for aesthetic reasons mostly]. The lessons learned in previous iterations and attempts at PI were useful in making sure that things went smoothly.
The first installation [after the Command Center] was the Spaceport. Additional Advanced Industrial Facilities [AIFwere placed around the Spaceport in a hexagonal layout while attempting to minimise the distance between them. The result was a tightly packed set of 25 AIF. The next step was to link everything together with the minimum number of links and avoiding any long links. This involved a bit of trial and error and sketching to get it set up with the least number of links without overloading any of them or requiring upgrades if necessary. The final result was 5 branches of 4 AIF connected in a general ‘Y’ or ‘T’ shape and one branch with 5 AIF.
On [Re]-Evaluating the Whole Wormhole Works
Non-Industrialists Must Stop Reading Now and Go Shoot Miners!
For the rest of you – there has always been a small [ok LARGE] part of me that enjoys the industrial side of EVE. I like shooting people in ships, flying around looking for targets, debating how best to fit a ship for a job and if it is even a valid application; however I also like making things. For several reasons I have variously gotten involved in mining ore, making munitions and modules, building ships, inventing Tech 2 items and ships, harvesting gasses, reacting polymers, reverse engineering artifacts, building Tech 3 pieces and putting together planetary colonies for producing various tower fuels, T2 components and raw materials. It is the POS fuels and their production that this post deals with.
There are a multitude of ways to go about this and I will probably forget some along the way, so feel free to point those out to me. In the mean time, the following is a walk-through of how I got to where I am. Remembering how I had started with trying to set everything up in one go I knew that I was going to give it plenty of thought and try and do my homework.
When Penny and I returned to a C4 to live and hunt with a smaller pack, I opted to look at the whole PI process again and evaluate how best to approach it. I opted to see if I could produce enough robotics to keep the tower supplied without having to import them. They are an expensive part of the fuel calculation and would significantly affect what we had to provide on our own. This plan was to use the planets in the system to produce fuel for use and not for sale. The first fuel setup was Robotics as it accounts for about 15% of the total fuel costs and 30% of the non-ice fuel costs. A balanced fuel load [using as much of the fuel cargo space in the tower with all fuels for the same number of days] for our large faction tower means we need 816 units of robotics every 34 days.
In order to do this, we need to be able to produce 24 robotics per day. One Advanced Industry Facility produced 3 [u]nits of robotics per hour given 40u of Mechanical Parts and 40u of Consumer Electronics. This works out to 72u robotics per day if there is sufficient supply of Mechanical Parts and Consumer Electronics. The goal is then to determine how best to go about getting the Mech. Parts and Cons. Elect. supplies necessary to keep the Robotics rolling off the line continuously. The first attempt saw extraction and production spring up on our plasma world for Cons. Elect. and on a Barren planet for Mech. Parts. The second barren planet was then setup to combine the P2 materials into robotics.
One of the things that quickly became apparent when setting up a large scale Planetary Interaction colony was the extreme PG need for a large number of extractor heads. Thus there was always going to be a compromise over the amount of P0 material extracted and the number of basic industrial factories that could convert it to P1. Thus I was able to get about 1,400u each of Mech. Parts and Cons. Elect. This made for about 35u Robotics per day. While this was sufficient for producing the fuel we need for our tower, it was a very depressing return for what seemed like so much work put into clicking, hauling and then clicking again. This also only resulted in 500,000 isk/day in excess revenue which hardly seemed worth the time sink. It is for things like this that I pay people to change the fluids in my planetary vehicle.
On Strip Mining Planets
Moving into a Class 5 wormhole after the Class 4 saw a shift away from producing anything and toward raw extraction. This was the part of the plan where I put down extractor heads and landing pad to rip as much stuff out of each ball of dirt/lava/gas in our system that I could get my greedy little command centres on.
The initial plan here was to stockpile the extracted Planetary resources [P0] materials until a suitable wormhole opened up and then flood the market with it all. The basic tenets involved were: Low Stress; Low Time; Low Margin; Medium Returns. This plan was enacted and working for only a couple days before two things happened to change it all up.
The first was the change from extractors to extractor “control units” and “heads” for getting the P0 out of the planet. This required going back to each planet and restructuring how everything was laid out on the colony. While this was time consuming, it was in all actuality a blessing because of the following reason required some colony restructuring/thinking.
The second issue was probably the more important factor – raw P0 are rather bulky in large quantities. Another pilot and I quickly realised that using the XL ship assembly array as well as the freighter was not going to be sufficient to hold all the stuffing we were pulling out of our plush planets. A quick refit saw the new extractor heads added and a couple dozen basic processors to change our P0 into Tier 1 products [P1]. This resulted in our good only needing 25% of their former volume [3000 units of P0 = 20 units of P1: 30m3 P0 = 7.6m3 P1]. This made storing the produce much easier, moving it out take less time/effort and allow us to wait for a suitable exit that we were comfortable using.
In a typical day I could collect about 18,000 units of Oxidizing Compounds [there was a lot of gas] over three planets. A fourth planet was setup on our temperate world for exporting mass quantities of Industrial Fibers which could theoretically generate about 12,000 units. If you noticed from the previous paragraph, this is a still a lot of cubic meters of stuff. So much so that in order to keep enough space free in the spaceport I was forced to export my planetary goods 2-3 times per day. This was also an unworkable solution not to mention unsustainable from a resource point of view.
In the end I scaled back the extraction and production on the gas planets to about 3,100 units of P1 each day [ending with a full spaceport] and then could export and restart the whole process over again. This was all worth about 500,000 isk per planet per day logged on. This meant with my 5 planets, I would be able to generate 2.5 million isk per day for about 20 mins of clicking. Yeah – it took a while for that to sink in. This was not going to be a long term cash cow but it was certainly something to fill in the space between scanning, running anomalies, hauling crap and running reactions.
On Colonising and Mining a Planet
In my first foray into Planetary Interaction [PI], there was a mythical 4th Tier [P4] level product that could then be used to potentially build POS arrays and structures. I scoured the ‘show info’ windows and read as much as I could about how it all stacked together [P0->P1->P2->P3->P4], which planets were necessary and even which POS arrays were moving and selling, how much of what it took to make them, which planets were optimal for that, what skills would be needed, et cetera. I briefly [nearly non-existent moment in time] toyed with the idea of building Corporate Hangar Arrays as a lot of them were showing up on tower kills [a few that I happened to be a part of – shooting them that is]. I have seen a lot of other pilots talking about their planetary colonies, how they set them up, what they are producing and what they have found to work well for them. I wanted to share my experience and hopefully offer help for someone else looking to set up their own PI production chain.
As it turns out, this was going to be quite beyond what would be profitable for a single pilot [or even two] to effectively manage with sufficient appreciable return. Perhaps if an entire corporation were committed to producing all of the parts involved it could be a profitable venture. Realising full well that the first ‘M’ in MMO is for multiplayer [the second is for migraine], I still thought there must be something that a single player could do with PI that would be a least somewhat profitable.
I spent a fair amount of time looking at the spreadsheets, making my own, pulling up prices from the late eve-metrics and eve-central and deciding what might be possible. In the end I opted to start with just a couple of little things to help offset POS fuel. Enriched Uranium seemed good as it could all be produced at the plasma planet we already had and then could be used to help fuel the POS we were living out of. Easy, right?
It took a couple of tries [including a full tear down and rebuild of the colony] to get everything situated in some semblance of order. Along the way I learned important lessons about planet size [bigger means longer, more expensive links], production set up [work in reverse – more on this later], and repetitive stress syndrome from the click-a-palooza involved in turning everything on. As I learned I also read more and discovered several great tools for planning:
Additionally I began to become more efficient in planning my colonies to try an squeeze the most out of them. This is a fairly difficult pursuit as the changes made to PI since incursion have affected the ability to do single planet construction.
On Using PI In Our Wormhole
What seems like a sure-win situation with the planets we had available before the release has turned into an annoying state of affairs that will need a lot more work to make it a production reality. Whereas we initially had a fairly good spread of lava, gas, barren, ice, storm – we now have lava, barren, temperate, plasma, storm. This is coupled with the fact that it would appear that any two given resources needed on a planet to manufacture a specific tier 2 product are in fact separated by a fairly large distance. This requires a lot of CPU for links and reduces a given colony’s effectiveness.
After polling the other pilots who are setting up shop in the w’hole, it seems that they are needing about 2-3 million per planet set-up in extractor and refinery costs. This is assuming that you get it right and don’t have to move anything around later. We’re still in the exploratory phase and will likely end tearing down and rebuilding several times before we get it ‘right’. This is also coupled with the fact that we’ll need to start co-ordinating our productions once people have a better handle on the process.
On the plus side, we have more than enough enriched uranium to last out the decade. Too bad we can’t set up a shop out here in the nether world for pilots passing through to buy from us. Corporate Sales Array anyone?
On Friends Coming To Join Us
[caption id="" align="alignleft" width="128" caption="Bandits In The Hole"]  [/caption]
This last week or so has seen our good friends and alliance-mates the Fearless Bandits come out to play. They are mainly the Greater Realms’ highsec mission and PVE corporation but they are looking for some diversion and adventure so they have trundled out to the wormhole to set up shop. They have already proven their worth on multiple occasions previously, have been a part of the alliance planning and development from the beginning and we are thrilled to have them along for the ride. It is always a good thing to have more friends around.
While they are primarily focused on mission running in high security, Empire space, they have very quickly adapted to life out in the ‘holes. There are still questions to be considered and answers to deliver, but it’s still a pleasant addition. They now have their own tower up and happily living from it as they join us for several combined operations. Initially they packed light and so we’ve loaned out a few of our now standard fits for them to use. It has helped to know exactly what they are flying and how it should perform in integrating them into our “well-oiled machine” [insert laughter here].
In addition to FEARL coming out to play, we’ve added several new faces who are old faces come round again. Some former corp-mates from long before have finally rejoined us and really stepped out mining/refining game. Hats off to them for helping to capitalise on the resources we just had floating around for lack of more barge pilots.
How do I balance my own progress with that of providing for my corporation and or alliance? As an industrial character who has spent a fair number of hours learning to build nice things, how do I remain profitable while supporting those around me?
If I produce for the corporation and/or alliance, the expectation is that there is some kind of break in prices. As a conscientious industrialist, I am going to tell them how much it costs me and where it’s more than the market, suggest that they obtain it there. Where it is cheaper to build, I want to offer them the opportunity to get it cheaper and be there for the people that help make it possible. I have found that I am quite horrible though at maintaining the balance necessary between things produced for sales [the market] and those manufactured for consumption [the corporation/alliance]. Often then the result is a complete halt to my industrial tendencies.
This is often further complicated by my relative incompetence and disconnect with the sales and marketing side of things. I am quite comfortable in navigating the market, getting the resources I need, etc, but just as equally uncomfortable putting my wares up for sale. Finding holes, navigating gaps, incremental adjustments, market trends all tend to elude my grasp, leaving me with a very real sense of dissatisfaction with the sheer number of things I could be doing to maximise my profits, but are generally left undone. I envy both the selfless industrialist who is able to provide everything her corporation needs as well as the ruthless profiteer who is able to judge the market, jump into the fray and make obscene profits.
As a corollary to the above, there is also a push to be involved in corporate and alliance activities that are somewhat beyond my level. I am fairly competent at combat in sub-battleship roles, but could always use more experience and training in weapon systems. I’m quite happy to spend the time training for better weapons, drones, fittings, but have to balance this with a desire to also be able to improve my abilities to support my corp-mates with industry. Has anyone else figured out to do it all and do it well yet?
It is certainly something to work and think through.
In a brief return from being lost in space, our intrepid explorer and CEO of Penny Ibramovic Engineering [PIE] drops by to bring us another of her delicious posts to read after dinner. Enjoy.
The manufacturing division of Penny Ibramovic Industries is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Whilst it is reassuring to check my wallet and see a steady stream of income based on profit from sales, that income is dwarfed by the continued success of the wormhole engineers. Raking in tens of millions of ISK for most wormhole operations makes my market sales look like petty cash. One wormhole operation can plump my wallet up with enough iskies to cover all my sell orders on the market, whatever outrageous profit margin I added at the time, rather than waiting weeks watching the cash trickle in. Production may offer a steady and generally reliable income, but it’s slow.
Admittedly, I am hardly a business entrepreneur at the moment, but nor will I be with my home out in w-space, as I will not be able to commit the necessary time to making a fortune off the market. Indeed, access to any market information is impossible in w-space, hence my need to return to New Eden to monitor prices and make adjustments. If I simply accept that manufacturing and sales is not currently a cost-effective use of my time, maybe I will be better off. It isn’t as if my researched blueprints will disappear or suddenly become useless. All that will happen is I will lose the incremental adjustments to my wallet as my modules sell. But I think I may miss that.
However much I like living out in w-space, my anti-social nature enjoying the solitude, the sell order transactions in my wallet continue to give me a link back to New Eden. It’s not that I want to interact with these capsuleers, I actually quite like that I don’t have to just because I run a business. But w-space can feel very empty. Local channel remains quiet and unpopulated, regardless of who may be in the system. Even if there are others in the system, space remains big enough that you are unlikely to encounter them, except perhaps when passing through wormholes. And you don’t really want to encounter other capsuleers in w-space, unless you’re specifically looking for them.
[caption id="" align="alignleft" width="300" caption="Tourism In EVE"]  [/caption]
Not that I pay attention to the local channel when I am in high-sec, though, I actively ignore it. And idly hitting d-scan in high-sec—out of curiosity more than w-space habit—reveals far more activity in the system than makes me feel comfortable. I am sure all that activity was occurring back when I was living in high-sec, I just wasn’t aware of it. But now that I am used to the deceptive tranquility of w-space, appreciating all that is going on around me in high-sec makes me oddly claustrophobic. I need space. But just as much as I need space, I need to feel connected, even a little. Inferring that life continues by the wallet transactions of capsuleers buying my products gives me that connection. I suppose sometimes you just want to look out the window to be reminded of the world you are ignoring.
Hip, hip, horrific are the words we sing
Hip, hip, horrific is our thing -(TMBG)
As I look around and back at the posts I’ve written for the last year or so, I am reminded how well things have gone, but also how spectacularly I’ve managed to fail. If you are looking for pitfalls to avoid – you’ve found them. If you want to see how not to train for something; look no further. If you would rather have less isk at the end of the day, then this is your lucky blog!
Seriously, the posts that inhabit these pages are filled with the heartache and misery of a pilot bashing her head against the same asteroid day after day after day. At the end of the day there is a hangar full of veldspar and tritanium, some trash modules and a ship that desperately needs a tune up. Along the way the pilot has learned that you shouldn’t trust another pilot but you have to trust the other pilots until they fail you. You can’t put 4000 m3 in a GSC and there’s no way to get a station container out of a station. Overheating missiles is not so effective and skilling up adequately for boosters is going to be very expensive.
There are a few bright spots along the way. Namely, the ships and modules that have been opened up through a varied training programme that includes tech 2 mining equipment, logistics cruisers and some command ships. This is easily countered by the fail combat skills that barely allow for named heavy missiles on a Drake and some lame, unsupported rails on a Moa. It’s rather comical sometimes to be able to fit a full Tech 2 tank on every ship in the game, but then realize you still only have the equivalent of light weapons for armaments. Fear the fail firepower of 150mm rails on a Ferox! My heavy missile Drake of Dewm causes fits of laughter when people can safely orbit at 55 km and pick off my drones and then me.
![Low DPS [Divide by 7]](http://eve.finkeworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Low-DPS-tm.jpg)
Other suggest that I should be proud of the fact that I can invent nearly anything possible on the market, but even that seems to fall flat. I have consistently managed to lose money or break even on Tech 2 invention and production. My volume approach is low and slow, so as to be moving backwards in appearance. I can train people to use the towers, labs, production facilities, but seem to fail in doing so myself. What was I thinking! Science is for smart people. Production is for people who are actually motivated.
So what have we learned from all of this:
- Train all the skills you possibly can [let's start with 231]
- Train a wide variety of skills to level 5 [53 is a good number]
- Science skills help you store lot’s of SP [9.6 million and counting]
- Collect ships [So you can collect dust]
- Every 3-4 months spend everything you have on one ship setup and then poke a pirate.
And I think I’ve rambled on enough for all of us today. And that is how to fail.
Words fail
Buildings tumble
The ground opens wide
Light beams down from heaven
She stands before my eyes
– (TMGB)
Because I’m always a bit distracted and doing 20-30 different things at once, it often means that I hit things hard and hope I get enough to keep the project afloat until I get back around to it again. One of those projects is the ongoing Orca development project that manages to be purely theoretical in nature. All this means, I don’t actually produce Orcas, but I come back and look at their production costs in relation to the current ore/mineral prices. In update to a post of long ago [Orca Production Calculations], the following changes have been made:
An Orca can currently be broken down into its component pieces and then sub-costed into their mineral components. The overall picture doesn’t include any of the manufacturing costs and assumes NO Material Efficiency research. I am putting the picture of the calculations in this post, but I’ll try to summarise the numbers for brevity as well.
To produce an Orca requires 7 component blueprint and one ship blueprint that all average around 1.1 billion each to purchase from the market. Each of the seven components will cost approximately 4 million in minerals on average [3.2 million - 5.5 million]. Combined with the total number of each component, the cost to produce an Orca is currently approximately 310 million. Since I’m not selling Orcas, I feel comfortable in suggesting that market prices ought to be around 350m allowing for profit margins, research costs and capital paybacks.
If mineral costs continue to fall, Orca prices could stabilize as low as 325 million. Adding rigs to them will still push them up over 400 million. The cargohold optimization rigs are still running over 30 million each. The addition of the ore hold has drastically improved the Orca’s flexibility and original role performance.
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[/caption]
[caption id="" align="alignleft" width="150" caption="The Puppet's Ice Planet"]
[/caption]
[/caption]
[caption id="attachment_1126" align="alignright" width="150" caption="The Puppet's Storm Planet"]
[/caption]
[/caption]
[/caption]
[caption id="attachment_1124" align="alignright" width="150" caption="The Puppet's Barren Planet"]
[/caption]
[/caption]
![Low DPS [Divide by 7]](http://eve.finkeworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Low-DPS.png)
