15/05/11 08:39 AM
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On Tier 3 Planetary Production – My Current Setup
As I have reviewed what has happened in getting a good sized Planetary Interaction setup organised, several things began to pop up. There was this constant nagging sensation that I was Doing It Wrong™. There also had to be a way to get a better yield and some how make use of the CPU that was not being used. The first idea was to see if would be better to separate extraction and production completely. To do this, I enlisted the help of The Puppet to set up his four planets to extract each of the four P0 needed in the production of Robotics.
First a quick survey of the system gave us a good rundown of what resources were available on each of the planets [or just glancing online somewhere] and in what quantities they are present at each one. This part was something that I felt was important as it allowed me to eliminate some planets in favor of others. From this survey I whipped up a quick and dirty sheet of numbers to help plan out my strategy:
| Planet |
Aq
Liq |
Base
Mtl |
Carbon
Cmpds |
Micro
Org |
Noble
Mtl |
Hvy
Mtl |
Non-CS
Crys |
Susp
Plas |
Ionic
Sol. |
Noble
Gas |
Reac
Gas |
Plank
Col. |
| I |
25 |
75 |
75 |
75 |
33 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
| II |
25 |
75 |
75 |
75 |
25 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
| III |
0 |
40 |
0 |
0 |
80 |
40 |
50 |
5 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
| IV |
60 |
80 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
60 |
50 |
60 |
0 |
0 |
| V |
50 |
75 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
55 |
75 |
25 |
0 |
| VI |
50 |
75 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
60 |
75 |
33 |
0 |
| VII |
50 |
75 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
60 |
75 |
25 |
0 |
| VIII |
50 |
75 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
60 |
75 |
20 |
0 |
| IX |
100 |
0 |
0 |
50 |
0 |
100 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
33 |
0 |
50 |
[caption id="" align="alignleft" width="161" caption="Kename's Ice Planet"]  [/caption]
[caption id="" align="alignleft" width="150" caption="The Puppet's Ice Planet"]  [/caption]
The Puppet planned to just extract the raw materials and export the refined P1 materials and store them in the Corporate Hangar Array for me to haul to the planet where I was building Robotics. He set up on the ice planet to extract Heavy Metals as it had the largest concentration of that resource. I added an extraction set up for the ice planet as well and soon we were pulling in a great volume of Heavy Metals and exporting quite a fair amount of Toxic Metals to put toward Cons. Elect. production later. One of the big benefits of the way the new extractor head system works is the ability to move them around freely to adjust to changing deposits of resources or fix and fiddle with any of them without having to destroy and rebuild a colony every time. Due to the way the CPU/power grid worked out, I was not able to get an additional basic industrial facility as I was short about 50 PG. Since there was copious amounts of CPU available, I opted to add a second Landing pad and put the intermediate P1 there for storage and export.
[caption id="" align="alignright" width="151" caption="Kename's Storm Planet"]  [/caption]
[caption id="attachment_1126" align="alignright" width="150" caption="The Puppet's Storm Planet"]  [/caption]
For his second installation he set up on the storm world to extract Base Metals. This was a deliberate decision based on my previous survey of the system. All but one of the planets in our wormhole has deposits of Base Metals and at fairly high concentrations. The storm planet has the benefits of being the largest quantity by percentage coupled with a fairly low planetary radius to keep link costs down. It also does not have any other resources necessary for production of robotics. The lower CPU and PG needs for links allows for an additional processor instead of the second spaceport of the ice planet. The Base Metals are refined and converted into Reactive Metals for the later production of Mechanical Parts needed to make Robotics.
[caption id="" align="alignleft" width="244" caption="Kename's Plasma Planet"]  [/caption]
[caption id="attachment_1125" align="alignleft" width="150" caption="The Puppet's Plasma Planet"]  [/caption]
The third move was into toward the plasma planet’s set up. It was initially set up to be both an extraction and production plant. Some conversion was necessary in order for it to fit the new structure of pure extraction instead. The basic industry facilities were retained but in some cases repurposed with new schematics. Additionally the the spaceport for storage and export was kept intact. Production schema were updated and routes modified to match. The radius of the planet is similar to that of the storm and so has a similar number of processors. The Puppet here also set up shop to extract Non-CS Crystals and produce Chiral Structures for later incorporation into Cons. Elect.
[caption id="" align="alignright" width="244" caption="Kename's Barren Extraction Planet"]  [/caption]
[caption id="attachment_1124" align="alignright" width="150" caption="The Puppet's Barren Planet"]  [/caption]
Finally the last extraction planet was one of the Barren Planets. There was not much difference between the two and their relative deposits so The Puppet put up an extractor colony on the first planet and I opted to build my extraction facility on the second one. The idea was to avoid interfering with each other’s setup and thereby maximising the returns. The barren planets both have somewhat mediocre deposits of Noble Metals, but the only other planet with the resource is the plasma planet which is already obligated for Non-CS Crystals.
After all of that, it seemed like the bulk of the work was finished. Eight planets had been set up to extract the four necessary P0 materials and refine it into the four Tier 1 Products used to produce Consumer Electronics and Mechanical Parts for final inclusion of the Robotics.
[caption id="" align="alignleft" width="194" caption="Making Robots"]  [/caption]
[caption id="attachment_1123" align="alignright" width="150" caption="Backup Production Facility"]  [/caption]
The last step was supposed to be the most straight forward as it could be set up on any planet and did not require survey. Again, I opted to have this set up on the second barren planet in our home wormhole system that I was not using for Noble Metals [but The Puppet was] as it had the smallest diameter and thus was the most economical in terms of CPU and PG needed for links. This was a fairly complex setup and in hindsight would do a couple of placements differently [for aesthetic reasons mostly]. The lessons learned in previous iterations and attempts at PI were useful in making sure that things went smoothly.
The first installation [after the Command Center] was the Spaceport. Additional Advanced Industrial Facilities [AIFwere placed around the Spaceport in a hexagonal layout while attempting to minimise the distance between them. The result was a tightly packed set of 25 AIF. The next step was to link everything together with the minimum number of links and avoiding any long links. This involved a bit of trial and error and sketching to get it set up with the least number of links without overloading any of them or requiring upgrades if necessary. The final result was 5 branches of 4 AIF connected in a general ‘Y’ or ‘T’ shape and one branch with 5 AIF.
On [Re]-Evaluating the Whole Wormhole Works
Non-Industrialists Must Stop Reading Now and Go Shoot Miners!
For the rest of you – there has always been a small [ok LARGE] part of me that enjoys the industrial side of EVE. I like shooting people in ships, flying around looking for targets, debating how best to fit a ship for a job and if it is even a valid application; however I also like making things. For several reasons I have variously gotten involved in mining ore, making munitions and modules, building ships, inventing Tech 2 items and ships, harvesting gasses, reacting polymers, reverse engineering artifacts, building Tech 3 pieces and putting together planetary colonies for producing various tower fuels, T2 components and raw materials. It is the POS fuels and their production that this post deals with.
There are a multitude of ways to go about this and I will probably forget some along the way, so feel free to point those out to me. In the mean time, the following is a walk-through of how I got to where I am. Remembering how I had started with trying to set everything up in one go I knew that I was going to give it plenty of thought and try and do my homework.
When Penny and I returned to a C4 to live and hunt with a smaller pack, I opted to look at the whole PI process again and evaluate how best to approach it. I opted to see if I could produce enough robotics to keep the tower supplied without having to import them. They are an expensive part of the fuel calculation and would significantly affect what we had to provide on our own. This plan was to use the planets in the system to produce fuel for use and not for sale. The first fuel setup was Robotics as it accounts for about 15% of the total fuel costs and 30% of the non-ice fuel costs. A balanced fuel load [using as much of the fuel cargo space in the tower with all fuels for the same number of days] for our large faction tower means we need 816 units of robotics every 34 days.
In order to do this, we need to be able to produce 24 robotics per day. One Advanced Industry Facility produced 3 [u]nits of robotics per hour given 40u of Mechanical Parts and 40u of Consumer Electronics. This works out to 72u robotics per day if there is sufficient supply of Mechanical Parts and Consumer Electronics. The goal is then to determine how best to go about getting the Mech. Parts and Cons. Elect. supplies necessary to keep the Robotics rolling off the line continuously. The first attempt saw extraction and production spring up on our plasma world for Cons. Elect. and on a Barren planet for Mech. Parts. The second barren planet was then setup to combine the P2 materials into robotics.
One of the things that quickly became apparent when setting up a large scale Planetary Interaction colony was the extreme PG need for a large number of extractor heads. Thus there was always going to be a compromise over the amount of P0 material extracted and the number of basic industrial factories that could convert it to P1. Thus I was able to get about 1,400u each of Mech. Parts and Cons. Elect. This made for about 35u Robotics per day. While this was sufficient for producing the fuel we need for our tower, it was a very depressing return for what seemed like so much work put into clicking, hauling and then clicking again. This also only resulted in 500,000 isk/day in excess revenue which hardly seemed worth the time sink. It is for things like this that I pay people to change the fluids in my planetary vehicle.
On Strip Mining Planets
Moving into a Class 5 wormhole after the Class 4 saw a shift away from producing anything and toward raw extraction. This was the part of the plan where I put down extractor heads and landing pad to rip as much stuff out of each ball of dirt/lava/gas in our system that I could get my greedy little command centres on.
The initial plan here was to stockpile the extracted Planetary resources [P0] materials until a suitable wormhole opened up and then flood the market with it all. The basic tenets involved were: Low Stress; Low Time; Low Margin; Medium Returns. This plan was enacted and working for only a couple days before two things happened to change it all up.
The first was the change from extractors to extractor “control units” and “heads” for getting the P0 out of the planet. This required going back to each planet and restructuring how everything was laid out on the colony. While this was time consuming, it was in all actuality a blessing because of the following reason required some colony restructuring/thinking.
The second issue was probably the more important factor – raw P0 are rather bulky in large quantities. Another pilot and I quickly realised that using the XL ship assembly array as well as the freighter was not going to be sufficient to hold all the stuffing we were pulling out of our plush planets. A quick refit saw the new extractor heads added and a couple dozen basic processors to change our P0 into Tier 1 products [P1]. This resulted in our good only needing 25% of their former volume [3000 units of P0 = 20 units of P1: 30m3 P0 = 7.6m3 P1]. This made storing the produce much easier, moving it out take less time/effort and allow us to wait for a suitable exit that we were comfortable using.
In a typical day I could collect about 18,000 units of Oxidizing Compounds [there was a lot of gas] over three planets. A fourth planet was setup on our temperate world for exporting mass quantities of Industrial Fibers which could theoretically generate about 12,000 units. If you noticed from the previous paragraph, this is a still a lot of cubic meters of stuff. So much so that in order to keep enough space free in the spaceport I was forced to export my planetary goods 2-3 times per day. This was also an unworkable solution not to mention unsustainable from a resource point of view.
In the end I scaled back the extraction and production on the gas planets to about 3,100 units of P1 each day [ending with a full spaceport] and then could export and restart the whole process over again. This was all worth about 500,000 isk per planet per day logged on. This meant with my 5 planets, I would be able to generate 2.5 million isk per day for about 20 mins of clicking. Yeah – it took a while for that to sink in. This was not going to be a long term cash cow but it was certainly something to fill in the space between scanning, running anomalies, hauling crap and running reactions.
On Colonising and Mining a Planet
In my first foray into Planetary Interaction [PI], there was a mythical 4th Tier [P4] level product that could then be used to potentially build POS arrays and structures. I scoured the ‘show info’ windows and read as much as I could about how it all stacked together [P0->P1->P2->P3->P4], which planets were necessary and even which POS arrays were moving and selling, how much of what it took to make them, which planets were optimal for that, what skills would be needed, et cetera. I briefly [nearly non-existent moment in time] toyed with the idea of building Corporate Hangar Arrays as a lot of them were showing up on tower kills [a few that I happened to be a part of – shooting them that is]. I have seen a lot of other pilots talking about their planetary colonies, how they set them up, what they are producing and what they have found to work well for them. I wanted to share my experience and hopefully offer help for someone else looking to set up their own PI production chain.
As it turns out, this was going to be quite beyond what would be profitable for a single pilot [or even two] to effectively manage with sufficient appreciable return. Perhaps if an entire corporation were committed to producing all of the parts involved it could be a profitable venture. Realising full well that the first ‘M’ in MMO is for multiplayer [the second is for migraine], I still thought there must be something that a single player could do with PI that would be a least somewhat profitable.
I spent a fair amount of time looking at the spreadsheets, making my own, pulling up prices from the late eve-metrics and eve-central and deciding what might be possible. In the end I opted to start with just a couple of little things to help offset POS fuel. Enriched Uranium seemed good as it could all be produced at the plasma planet we already had and then could be used to help fuel the POS we were living out of. Easy, right?
It took a couple of tries [including a full tear down and rebuild of the colony] to get everything situated in some semblance of order. Along the way I learned important lessons about planet size [bigger means longer, more expensive links], production set up [work in reverse – more on this later], and repetitive stress syndrome from the click-a-palooza involved in turning everything on. As I learned I also read more and discovered several great tools for planning:
Additionally I began to become more efficient in planning my colonies to try an squeeze the most out of them. This is a fairly difficult pursuit as the changes made to PI since incursion have affected the ability to do single planet construction.
On Deciding What To Do With The Coloured Balls In Space
A recent post by Letrange has twinged my industrial nerves and I was motivated to actually put words to thoughts about Planetary Interaction. I have had my own opinion swing back and forth a number of times on the subject as I give weight to various facets of the whole operation. On the one hand there is the raw price breakdown where P3 > P2 > P1 but balanced by the fact it is so very, very easy to just dump P1 [or even P2] on the market without worrying about colony setup/mainenance/balance.
The P1-chain is a pure set and forget production line with only a basic industry facility. It does not take much work and can easily be exported, scooped and marketed.
A quick and dirty look at P2 gives us a slightly more complicated chain for about 8% increase in isk. Again not bad if the markets hold and the post-production transport/sales are easy.
The P3-chain is another 8-9% increase in revenue but with a much higher investment and management cost. So far, I have been able to generate more than 10% in excess of the necessary P2 reagents for producing P3. This negates the increased revenue from the P3 by sheer volume of P2 [and even P1] produced.
For anything greater P4 and even tower/array building [tower prices on the rise], it takes a significantly larger time investment that I have not been able to integrate.
So in the end, I build some P3 [Robotics] to use for fuel because it is easier than importing to the wormhole, but much prefer to just produce P1 or P2 for market sales. Getting it to the market can be a bit annoying from deep in w-space, but is not something that must be sold quickly to maintain the operation.
On Adding, Subtracting and Finding Yourself Happy
 Some things are easily quantified and measured. They can be numbered, totalled, divided, analysed and reported. This is basic maths and accounting, in that you know how much of something there is and how much it is worth in time, effort, profit, etc. These are the things that most people aim for and are more than happy pursuing. More and better ships, profit, ore, isk, research, production, flying, etc.
On the other hand, there are the unquantifiables. The things that defy counting and spurn attempts to wrangle them into mathematical formulae. The time spent teaching a new corporation member the way things are done or walking a newbie through basic scanning 101 can be really hard to put a number on/in/by. How do we assign a value to the logistics pilot that kept several millions or even billions of isk on the field longer in a fight? Is there any quantitative measure for the time spent making sure the POS was set up efficiently so that arrays were easily accessed without flying back and forth all over the bubble? How about the amount of energy and resources put into manning a gate camp?
Still another thing to consider is how much isk is enough? The answer ranges from the PVP pilot who like heroin addicts, just wants enough for the next fix, er, ship to the full-on industrialist/trader who needs all of the isk to be satisfied. Most of us fall somewhere in between where we have a comfortable point, varying slightly by our preferred hulls and fittings. We could all use more and could survive on less.
Orakkus recently wrote about what it takes to be a Solid Pilot, and I think it is just as applicable to the discussion of value [and worth a plug as well]. There is a certain value to a pilot that can fully fit a sniper battleship and the one that knows she needs to stick to something else. It is often immeasurably valuable for fleet commanders to know that the the people in the fleet know their roles and can adequately fill them. I am afraid of only two things in EVE: 1) Logging in and finding that my friends have decided to pack it up and move to some other venue; 2) Idiots.
The first is mitigated by the communication channels that friends share in and outside of New Eden but the second is something that shatters dreams in fits of screaming nightmares. This is another item of value that is hard to quantify. How long do you invest in people that seem to be unable to learn or at least very slow to pick things up? Almost every cost/benefit analysis argument generally boils down into either a he-said-she-said situation or becomes so subjective as to be meaningless.
On Scanning, Shooting, Salvaging, Harvesting, Hauling and Helping
In a whirlwind rush, the list of things to get done piles up and begins to look like a impending avalanche. There may be fields of ore just floating out in our system patiently waiting to hear from our barges. There are definitely wormholes that have yet to be found, surveyed, catalogued and stored. There are gases dispersing, hoping to be harvested and stored until processing. There planetary resources to extract, refine, process and export. There are reaction to be run, research to be installed, POS arrays to be unanchored, moved, anchored, onlined and utilised. There are resources to be exported, sold, contracted and traded. There are fuels, modules, ships, ammo and skills to be imported. There are possibly neighbours that would like us to alleviate their shields, scour their armour and generally remove their hulls from them.
And none of that even begins to include the number of people that need to be thanked, congratulated, hailed, ignored, watched, befriended, shot, reshipped, berated and/or bereaved. Throw in some ongoing conversations about the nature of the universe, whether ships really fly in space or swim through it, who did what to whom and where to go to get some good, hard spiked Quafe.
The world we live and fly and fight and engineer in is rich, deep and very, very personal. It takes more than just a passing interest in spaceships and spreadsheets to appreciate it fully. This is not to say it’s perfect. The interface confounds me on a regular basis, my ship seems to occasionally have a mind of its own, the drones only respond 100% correctly on the second Tuesday of each week and occasionally my overview tells me I’m somewhere else.
We are busy little Wormhole Engineers. We like our part and the jobs we do. If you are looking for a stable source of income and relaxed, arm-chair piloting – keep flying. There is none of that out here.
On Being Gone Without Leaving
Some of you may have noticed that I have been slightly less textually productive as of late. The reason stems from a decision to fly down to the surface and spend some time overseeing the latest colony action from the box seats. I chose one of my planets in the wormhole and got down to the surface to get a real hands on feel for working on a plasma farm.
With the exception of the environmental systems [which are a complete pain at the best of times], the time was a fruitful exploration of what is going on at the root level of the colony that I had set up on the planet’s surface. I worked at all the different levels that I had set up, from extracting raw ingredients to processing them as tier one materials and finally combining those into still newer tier two products. I learned a lot about what goes into keeping the colony running as well as being efficient with the use of materials, layout of facilities, storage logistics and import/export excises [can anyone explain how CONCORD is collecting the isk I pay to import/export from way out in the wormhole?].
The net result of all of this: I was pretty well distracted for the last couple of months and managed to let everything here slide. Things like alliance and corporate operations were delegated, payments and diplomacy were put on hold or handed off, other income and revenue streams were throttled back and general amount of time in a pod was only the barest minimum to cover my ongoing capsuleer licensure. I am especially grateful to the men and women of WHEN who stepped up and carried a lot of extra responsibility during my absence.
On Using Alts to Make Life Easier
Keeping up with everything has never been easy. Being 2 billion jumps [autopilot never lies!] from any particular known space system only serves to make it a bit harder. Several of the Wormhole Engineers have left behind not only friends and family, but also productive production lines, mission agents and research jobs to kill Sleepers, harvest gas and occasionally [rarely] mine some ore. Several people have suggested alts, but while they are good at putting up some market orders, I’m really not comfortable yet taking training time away from my pilot just to be able to do some missions, mine some ore or make some stuff to sell. I am jealous of my training time and the mistakes I make with it. It was hard enough to give up the time for some scanning skills.
I recently came across another spreadsheet someone had produced for EVE a long time ago, and it got all my creative number juices flowing again. I took it in and gave it a home and began rewriting some of the information both for formatting purposes and for modernity. It had not be updated in several revisions of EVE Online and needed some tender loving care. So I jumped in with aplomb and started throwing formulae around like there was no tomorrow. It was loads of fun and the results were nothing less than stupendous. It is approximately at this point in time when I realise, “This looks familar.”
I pull up my previous sheets and — baring some formatting and organisational categories — I have pretty much replicated my previous production spreadsheet. This triggered an almost compulsory desire to get out a recipe and stick something in an oven somewhere to cook. A few seconds later and I realised that would require not only killing the current wormhole, but also scanning for another and then tracking down where it went, who might want to kill me along the way and hoping it was somewhere at least relatively close to an oven I could use with ingredients I might need. For those who have actually seen my production output, this might be fairly humorous as they would know I have managed to produce exactly *squat* in the last year. Prior to that I produced a lot of ships and modules and I’m proud to say that I never sold a single thing for profit. For those that don’t know me, just understand I’m in love with the idea of production and spreadsheets, but prefer not to get bogged down with the messy details of actually being industrial on a large scale.
So catching the train back to relevancy, I briefly toyed with the idea of a functional alt to manufacture stuff with and decided to just get back in my pod and recalculate the woman hours involved in building a carrier complete with fittings from scratch.
How do I balance my own progress with that of providing for my corporation and or alliance? As an industrial character who has spent a fair number of hours learning to build nice things, how do I remain profitable while supporting those around me?
If I produce for the corporation and/or alliance, the expectation is that there is some kind of break in prices. As a conscientious industrialist, I am going to tell them how much it costs me and where it’s more than the market, suggest that they obtain it there. Where it is cheaper to build, I want to offer them the opportunity to get it cheaper and be there for the people that help make it possible. I have found that I am quite horrible though at maintaining the balance necessary between things produced for sales [the market] and those manufactured for consumption [the corporation/alliance]. Often then the result is a complete halt to my industrial tendencies.
This is often further complicated by my relative incompetence and disconnect with the sales and marketing side of things. I am quite comfortable in navigating the market, getting the resources I need, etc, but just as equally uncomfortable putting my wares up for sale. Finding holes, navigating gaps, incremental adjustments, market trends all tend to elude my grasp, leaving me with a very real sense of dissatisfaction with the sheer number of things I could be doing to maximise my profits, but are generally left undone. I envy both the selfless industrialist who is able to provide everything her corporation needs as well as the ruthless profiteer who is able to judge the market, jump into the fray and make obscene profits.
As a corollary to the above, there is also a push to be involved in corporate and alliance activities that are somewhat beyond my level. I am fairly competent at combat in sub-battleship roles, but could always use more experience and training in weapon systems. I’m quite happy to spend the time training for better weapons, drones, fittings, but have to balance this with a desire to also be able to improve my abilities to support my corp-mates with industry. Has anyone else figured out to do it all and do it well yet?
It is certainly something to work and think through.
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[/caption]
[caption id="" align="alignleft" width="150" caption="The Puppet's Ice Planet"]
[/caption]
[/caption]
[caption id="attachment_1126" align="alignright" width="150" caption="The Puppet's Storm Planet"]
[/caption]
[/caption]
[/caption]
[caption id="attachment_1124" align="alignright" width="150" caption="The Puppet's Barren Planet"]
[/caption]
[/caption]
